1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,740 The establishment left has just dropped entirely. 2 00:00:03,740 --> 00:00:05,509 So the democratic party, whatever that is, 3 00:00:05,509 --> 00:00:14,110 abandoned the working class a generation ago. 4 00:00:14,110 --> 00:00:17,580 Okay. 5 00:00:17,580 --> 00:00:18,580 Let's get straight into the questions. 6 00:00:18,580 --> 00:00:19,580 Is that all right? 7 00:00:19,580 --> 00:00:20,580 Oh yeah. 8 00:00:20,580 --> 00:00:21,580 Okay. 9 00:00:21,580 --> 00:00:23,939 So Peter, you can mute your mic if you don't mind. 10 00:00:23,939 --> 00:00:24,939 Got it. 11 00:00:24,939 --> 00:00:25,939 Okay. 12 00:00:25,939 --> 00:00:26,939 What I wanted to know is the first, 13 00:00:26,939 --> 00:00:30,199 I wanted to define the left and essentially the way that I'm going to do that 14 00:00:30,199 --> 00:00:34,820 is by asking you, what are the traits in the left, the left, 15 00:00:34,820 --> 00:00:37,890 political left in the past century that have changed and what's remained the 16 00:00:37,890 --> 00:00:39,910 same as far as you can tell? 17 00:00:39,910 --> 00:00:42,469 Well, of course, 18 00:00:42,469 --> 00:00:47,390 the left has moved consistently to new 19 00:00:47,390 --> 00:00:50,160 issues that weren't even noticed before. 20 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:53,239 So if you go back a century, well, 21 00:00:53,239 --> 00:00:58,479 there were elements of the left that you could call, say, feminist. 22 00:00:58,479 --> 00:01:01,060 It's nothing like the dominant, 23 00:01:01,060 --> 00:01:05,619 the dominant element in left 24 00:01:05,619 --> 00:01:07,950 politics that exists today. 25 00:01:07,950 --> 00:01:11,170 You go back 20 years ago, 26 00:01:11,170 --> 00:01:14,930 there was very little concern about the environment. 27 00:01:14,930 --> 00:01:19,940 Now the left recognizes that it's an existential problem. 28 00:01:19,940 --> 00:01:22,770 On the other hand, 29 00:01:22,770 --> 00:01:27,890 and so there are many cases in which there's been progress in understanding 30 00:01:27,890 --> 00:01:29,530 and dedicated work. 31 00:01:29,530 --> 00:01:32,030 There are other cases in which there's regression. 32 00:01:32,030 --> 00:01:37,130 So go back not very far, 33 00:01:37,130 --> 00:01:40,010 a couple of decades, 34 00:01:40,010 --> 00:01:43,729 labor organizing was a major issue for the left. 35 00:01:43,729 --> 00:01:48,899 It was recognized and understood that the driving force in any 36 00:01:48,899 --> 00:01:53,780 social and political economic change is going to be an organized working class. 37 00:01:53,780 --> 00:01:55,220 That's been, 38 00:01:55,220 --> 00:02:00,340 well, it depends what you call the left, 39 00:02:00,340 --> 00:02:04,530 but the establishment left has just dropped it entirely. 40 00:02:04,530 --> 00:02:06,560 So the democratic party, 41 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:07,940 whatever that is, 42 00:02:07,940 --> 00:02:12,290 abandoned the working class a generation ago, 43 00:02:12,290 --> 00:02:16,140 handed it over to their class enemy. 44 00:02:16,140 --> 00:02:20,019 Activists on the left have become engaged 45 00:02:20,019 --> 00:02:24,590 justifiably with issues that are sometimes called identity 46 00:02:24,590 --> 00:02:25,590 politics. 47 00:02:25,590 --> 00:02:28,700 Those are real issues, have to be dealt with. 48 00:02:28,700 --> 00:02:31,099 But class issues have been subordinated, 49 00:02:31,099 --> 00:02:36,019 marginalized, and they're very real. 50 00:02:36,019 --> 00:02:40,090 That's a deficiency that has to be overcome. 51 00:02:40,090 --> 00:02:44,990 All of these things interact when people talk about intersectionality, 52 00:02:44,990 --> 00:02:47,310 yes, they're right, 53 00:02:47,310 --> 00:02:52,360 but it's been more of a slogan than an actual achievement. 54 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:58,510 So I think if you look across the board, there's progress and regression. 55 00:02:58,510 --> 00:03:01,390 What is your opinion on identity politics? 56 00:03:01,390 --> 00:03:05,620 The issues are significant. 57 00:03:05,620 --> 00:03:08,500 They have to, they cannot, 58 00:03:08,500 --> 00:03:15,480 each type of identity politics cannot dominate 59 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,000 a commitment of an organized left that hopes to achieve things. 60 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:20,590 They have to interact, 61 00:03:20,590 --> 00:03:26,870 be mutually supportive and they have to crucially bring in the class issues that 62 00:03:26,870 --> 00:03:29,200 have been subordinated. 63 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:37,670 Actually the most active extreme form of identity politics is white nationalism. 64 00:03:37,670 --> 00:03:41,630 Something I'm trying to determine with my research is when does the left go too 65 00:03:41,630 --> 00:03:45,129 far and when does the right go too far, politically speaking? 66 00:03:45,129 --> 00:03:47,540 And I wanted to know what your opinion is on that. 67 00:03:47,540 --> 00:03:49,439 Just to pick the issues. 68 00:03:49,439 --> 00:03:54,349 I mean, the right at this point is simply suicidal. 69 00:03:54,349 --> 00:03:58,980 It's not a question of going too far. 70 00:03:58,980 --> 00:04:04,540 The right is committed to destruction of organized human society. 71 00:04:04,540 --> 00:04:06,220 Is that an extreme statement? 72 00:04:06,220 --> 00:04:08,230 Maybe, but it's correct. 73 00:04:08,230 --> 00:04:10,379 Just take a look at the Republican party. 74 00:04:10,379 --> 00:04:13,670 What is the Republican party committed to? 75 00:04:13,670 --> 00:04:19,930 It's committed to destroying human life and not in the long term. 76 00:04:19,930 --> 00:04:24,200 The Paris agreements a couple of years ago, 77 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,530 they weren't fabulous, but they were something at least. 78 00:04:28,530 --> 00:04:32,789 Their original effort intent was to destroy the human race. 79 00:04:32,789 --> 00:04:39,009 It was to create a treaty in which there would be verifiable commitments to some 80 00:04:39,009 --> 00:04:43,590 measures to avert the huge threat of global warming. 81 00:04:43,590 --> 00:04:45,449 Couldn't get a treaty. 82 00:04:45,449 --> 00:04:49,800 It had to be a voluntary agreement. 83 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:50,949 Why? 84 00:04:50,949 --> 00:04:53,729 Republican senators wouldn't accept it. 85 00:04:53,729 --> 00:04:58,949 I take the Republican primary in 2016. 86 00:04:58,949 --> 00:05:05,750 Every single candidate, without exception, either denied that global warming is taking 87 00:05:05,750 --> 00:05:06,750 place 88 00:05:06,750 --> 00:05:09,780 or else said, maybe it is, but we don't care. 89 00:05:09,780 --> 00:05:16,400 John Kasich, who was the governor of Ohio, who's considered the real moderate of the 90 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:17,400 group, 91 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:22,340 said, yeah, we recognize that global warming is taking place and it's serious, 92 00:05:22,340 --> 00:05:28,460 but we in Ohio are going to use our coal and we're not going to apologize for it. 93 00:05:28,460 --> 00:05:29,590 That's the moderate Republican. 94 00:05:29,590 --> 00:05:32,090 Then you go over to the White House. 95 00:05:32,090 --> 00:05:34,150 You have total maniacs. 96 00:05:34,150 --> 00:05:36,720 People who say we don't care. 97 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:41,850 I said, we'll destroy the world, but we'll have profit tomorrow and are leading the way 98 00:05:41,850 --> 00:05:45,410 towards destruction, consciously aware of what they're doing. 99 00:05:45,410 --> 00:05:46,650 No secret about it. 100 00:05:46,650 --> 00:05:47,650 Easy to demonstrate. 101 00:05:47,650 --> 00:05:50,000 How far to the right is this? 102 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:54,020 I mean, there's no words for it. 103 00:05:54,020 --> 00:05:55,300 One question. 104 00:05:55,300 --> 00:05:56,419 What about the left? 105 00:05:56,419 --> 00:05:58,100 When does the left go too far? 106 00:05:58,100 --> 00:06:00,979 It's not a matter of going too far. 107 00:06:00,979 --> 00:06:07,180 It's a matter of making tactical decisions that are incorrect. 108 00:06:07,180 --> 00:06:13,380 You have to, if you, you may, there's, it may be that some of the goals go to, are debatable. 109 00:06:13,380 --> 00:06:14,820 Talk about that. 110 00:06:14,820 --> 00:06:20,090 But insofar as they're the kinds of goals that, say, we think we can support, 111 00:06:20,090 --> 00:06:26,539 you have to ask whether the tactics that are used are well designed to meet those goals 112 00:06:26,539 --> 00:06:28,690 or else undermine the goals. 113 00:06:28,690 --> 00:06:31,280 So let's take concrete cases. 114 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:39,740 As you know, I was very active in the anti-war movement, resistance movement during the 1960s. 115 00:06:39,740 --> 00:06:41,780 I had contact with Vietnamese. 116 00:06:41,780 --> 00:06:46,880 The Vietnamese were appalled by some of the tactics that were being used. 117 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:55,290 I remember meetings where the Vietnamese would plead with American activists not to do things 118 00:06:55,290 --> 00:06:57,330 like what the weathermen are doing. 119 00:06:57,330 --> 00:07:03,620 The weathermen, a lot of young people, many of them I knew, they were perfectly sincere. 120 00:07:03,620 --> 00:07:08,440 They thought that the way to end the war is to smash up the windows on Main Street. 121 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,590 It's not the way to end the war. 122 00:07:10,590 --> 00:07:16,890 That was the way to enrage construction workers and others, so they'd be more pro-war than 123 00:07:16,890 --> 00:07:18,780 they were before. 124 00:07:18,780 --> 00:07:23,440 The Vietnamese didn't care whether Americans felt good. 125 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,190 They cared whether they could survive. 126 00:07:25,190 --> 00:07:33,110 So what they advocated were measures so mild that a lot of the war movement would just 127 00:07:33,110 --> 00:07:34,110 laugh at them. 128 00:07:34,110 --> 00:07:37,069 But that's the kind of choice that has to be made all the time. 129 00:07:37,069 --> 00:07:40,009 I can give you many examples today. 130 00:07:40,009 --> 00:07:46,669 So going too far, I think the way we should rephrase that is picking tactics that are 131 00:07:46,669 --> 00:07:48,060 going to undermine 132 00:07:48,060 --> 00:07:55,520 the perhaps legitimate and just goals that you say you're advocating. 133 00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:03,190 On the discussion of the left and the right, in terms of their differences and their similarities, 134 00:08:03,190 --> 00:08:08,169 oftentimes the left are characterized as being pro-government and the right is characterized 135 00:08:08,169 --> 00:08:09,260 as being pro-corporation. 136 00:08:09,260 --> 00:08:15,351 And you have written about the revolving door between the two, between regulators and the 137 00:08:15,351 --> 00:08:19,690 regulated, in your book like Manufacturing Consent. 138 00:08:19,690 --> 00:08:25,260 Now, does this blur the line of what it means to be a left-winger and a right-winger? 139 00:08:25,260 --> 00:08:28,909 Do the left and the right still exist? 140 00:08:28,909 --> 00:08:31,470 Did they ever exist? 141 00:08:31,470 --> 00:08:34,269 I mean, let's take being pro- or anti-government. 142 00:08:34,269 --> 00:08:39,669 That's not a general position of the left. 143 00:08:39,669 --> 00:08:44,279 That's a tactical choice in particular circumstances. 144 00:08:44,279 --> 00:08:53,690 So when you have a state like the United States that's largely dominated by private tyrannies 145 00:08:53,690 --> 00:08:56,640 with very little public voice, 146 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:05,750 in that particular circumstance, the option available to you to overcome this is governmental 147 00:09:05,750 --> 00:09:06,750 action, 148 00:09:06,750 --> 00:09:10,780 which at least to some extent is responsive to public opinion. 149 00:09:10,780 --> 00:09:20,260 In other circumstances, when you're trying to construct a really libertarian left participatory 150 00:09:20,260 --> 00:09:21,380 society, 151 00:09:21,380 --> 00:09:26,280 you might want to dissolve governmental structures as a legitimate authority. 152 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,850 There's no right or wrong answer to that. 153 00:09:28,850 --> 00:09:34,410 So, for example, let's take, say, media. 154 00:09:34,410 --> 00:09:37,089 The United States is unusual. 155 00:09:37,089 --> 00:09:42,070 It's different from other developed societies in many respects. 156 00:09:42,070 --> 00:09:46,829 One respect is it doesn't have public, barely has public media. 157 00:09:46,829 --> 00:09:49,200 Media are privatized, overwhelming. 158 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,399 It's kind of a little tiny fringe on the left, nothing like, off the fringe. 159 00:09:53,399 --> 00:09:58,000 So it's like nothing like the BBC or anything like that. 160 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,120 We can look at why this happened. 161 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:08,700 Certainly not implicit in U.S. history, like the founders of the country, the framers, 162 00:10:08,700 --> 00:10:13,290 believe they interpreted the First Amendment very differently than the way we do. 163 00:10:13,290 --> 00:10:18,579 They thought it meant that the government ought to take an active role in sponsoring 164 00:10:18,579 --> 00:10:20,250 a free and independent press. 165 00:10:20,250 --> 00:10:24,000 That's why we have the post office, for example. 166 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:31,050 In its early years, the post office was almost totally devoted to providing a cheap, 167 00:10:31,050 --> 00:10:37,399 free, basically subsidies to a wide variety of journals and newspapers 168 00:10:37,399 --> 00:10:42,510 to encourage a varied, free, independent press. 169 00:10:42,510 --> 00:10:48,240 Over the years, the power of private power in the United States, 170 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:56,510 which is quite unusual, managed to privatize radio, television and more recently, the Internet. 171 00:10:56,510 --> 00:11:01,480 But that's and yes, in those circumstances, it would make sense to call for a public voice. 172 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:07,340 Under other circumstances, you might want to have local, local 173 00:11:07,340 --> 00:11:13,339 based, you know, worker based, community based media. 174 00:11:13,339 --> 00:11:15,529 And there's many other such questions. 175 00:11:15,529 --> 00:11:20,000 You're a self-described anarchist, and I'd like to know what is the difference between 176 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,769 your beliefs and contemporary libertarianism? 177 00:11:23,769 --> 00:11:33,700 Well, first of all, what's called libertarian in the United States is some ultra right advocacy 178 00:11:33,700 --> 00:11:35,709 of private tyrannies. 179 00:11:35,709 --> 00:11:40,990 Nothing, nothing like anything that was libertarian traditionally. 180 00:11:40,990 --> 00:11:44,019 But if you're talking about left libertarian, it's. 181 00:11:44,019 --> 00:11:50,630 You know, covers quite a range, but just as the term anarchism does. 182 00:11:50,630 --> 00:11:54,720 But there is a kind of a core at the center of it, I think. 183 00:11:54,720 --> 00:12:01,100 The core running through the whole tradition, many variations, 184 00:12:01,100 --> 00:12:06,450 is the recognition that there are certain structures 185 00:12:06,450 --> 00:12:15,330 in social, political life, economic life that are that have to justify their own legitimacy. 186 00:12:15,330 --> 00:12:17,170 They are coercive, authoritarian. 187 00:12:17,170 --> 00:12:24,649 There is hierarchy, domination. 188 00:12:24,649 --> 00:12:27,940 Somebody gives you or somebody takes them. 189 00:12:27,940 --> 00:12:32,530 All of those structures have to be are none of those structures are self-justifying. 190 00:12:32,530 --> 00:12:35,230 They have a burden of justification. 191 00:12:35,230 --> 00:12:40,639 If they can't meet it, which is almost always the case, they should be dismantled. 192 00:12:40,639 --> 00:12:42,650 I think that's the core principle. 193 00:12:42,650 --> 00:12:49,240 And my own view is that once you get to the basics, almost every normal person is an anarchist 194 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:50,600 in this sense. 195 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,410 But that's then you have to ask how it applies. 196 00:12:53,410 --> 00:12:55,450 So do you have a job somewhere? 197 00:12:55,450 --> 00:13:03,820 Well, if you have a job in a business corporation, let's say you're living in a tyranny. 198 00:13:03,820 --> 00:13:08,220 So extreme that no totalitarian dictator ever dreamed of it. 199 00:13:08,220 --> 00:13:14,720 So, for example, Stalin didn't tell people that you have 10 minutes to go to the bathroom 200 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:15,720 every couple hours. 201 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,339 You have to wear these clothes, not some other clothes. 202 00:13:18,339 --> 00:13:22,200 You're not allowed to stop to talk to a friend for a minute. 203 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,380 You're monitored, say, at an Amazon warehouse. 204 00:13:25,380 --> 00:13:32,529 So that if you don't pick up enough things fast enough, like maybe you stop to breathe 205 00:13:32,529 --> 00:13:33,529 or something, 206 00:13:33,529 --> 00:13:34,529 you get a demerit. 207 00:13:34,529 --> 00:13:36,660 There was no totalitarian dictatorship like that. 208 00:13:36,660 --> 00:13:37,839 That's most of people's lives. 209 00:13:37,839 --> 00:13:40,470 Well, is that a legitimate structure? 210 00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:44,280 Is the labor contract legitimate? 211 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:49,000 Actually, traditional classical liberals didn't think so. 212 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,880 Abraham Lincoln didn't think so. 213 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:53,950 The Republican Party didn't think so. 214 00:13:53,950 --> 00:13:58,459 The Republican Party's slogan in the mid-19th century, early Industrial Revolution, was 215 00:14:06,940 --> 00:13:59,759 that 216 00:14:06,940 --> 00:14:09,990 until you become a free person again. 217 00:14:09,990 --> 00:14:14,511 Well, OK, those ideas have been driven out of people's heads, but I don't think they're 218 00:14:14,511 --> 00:14:16,639 very far below the surface. 219 00:14:16,639 --> 00:14:18,720 They can emerge. 220 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:23,980 And that would be authentic left libertarianism, just one aspect. 221 00:14:23,980 --> 00:14:25,860 Crucial aspect. 222 00:14:25,860 --> 00:14:30,990 So it seems like you overlap with regards to free exchange of speech and ideas. 223 00:14:30,990 --> 00:14:36,089 And I remember a while ago you helped, you defended a Holocaust denier. 224 00:14:36,089 --> 00:14:40,260 And I wanted to know if you still stand by that. 225 00:14:40,260 --> 00:14:41,329 Defending a Holocaust denier? 226 00:14:41,329 --> 00:14:43,230 I mean, defending his freedom of speech. 227 00:14:43,230 --> 00:14:44,230 Sure. 228 00:14:44,230 --> 00:14:48,269 I mean, this is just standard classical liberalism. 229 00:14:48,269 --> 00:14:50,690 There's two choices. 230 00:14:50,690 --> 00:14:59,839 Either some form of power and authority, typically the state or other, determines what's true 231 00:14:59,839 --> 00:15:05,480 and punishes any deviation from what it claims is true. 232 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,600 Or else you allow views to be expressed that you don't like. 233 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:15,180 In fact, if you really believe in freedom of speech, the only issues are, do I allow 234 00:15:15,180 --> 00:15:18,470 speech that I don't like? 235 00:15:18,470 --> 00:15:24,529 Hitler and Stalin had nothing against speech that they liked. 236 00:15:24,529 --> 00:15:30,190 Nowadays, there's this trans rights versus free speech debate. 237 00:15:30,190 --> 00:15:32,150 And I want to know what you think about that. 238 00:15:32,150 --> 00:15:33,459 Where do you lie on that? 239 00:15:33,459 --> 00:15:38,139 Let's talk about Holocaust denial for another minute. 240 00:15:38,139 --> 00:15:43,620 The Holocaust denial is the norm in Western society. 241 00:15:43,620 --> 00:15:53,470 So, just to take an example, a couple of years ago, an article appeared in the New York Review, 242 00:15:53,470 --> 00:16:01,089 the major journal of left liberalism, in which the author, good, decent left liberal, was 243 00:16:01,089 --> 00:16:04,620 reviewing a book by a major American historian. 244 00:16:04,620 --> 00:16:13,870 He said in his review, he was interested to learn that when the early explorers came to 245 00:16:13,870 --> 00:16:21,600 the Western Hemisphere, there were only about a million people from the tropical forests 246 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:22,810 to the frozen north. 247 00:16:22,810 --> 00:16:28,740 He was off by about 60 or 70 million who were wiped out. 248 00:16:28,740 --> 00:16:31,589 Is that Holocaust denial? 249 00:16:31,589 --> 00:16:33,459 Did anybody say he should be imprisoned? 250 00:16:33,459 --> 00:16:36,160 Did anybody even notice? 251 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,400 I mean, these things happen all the time. 252 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:46,930 It's a particular form that we don't like, that somebody doesn't like, that's considered, 253 00:16:46,930 --> 00:16:48,990 that has to be suppressed. 254 00:16:48,990 --> 00:16:53,089 And that's worth keeping in mind when you talk about Holocaust denial. 255 00:16:53,089 --> 00:16:59,140 So, it seems like you have some similarities with Jordan Peterson on this issue. 256 00:16:59,140 --> 00:17:02,449 And I know that you haven't talked much about Jordan Peterson. 257 00:17:02,449 --> 00:17:06,730 And I wanted to know if you had any disagreements with what he says. 258 00:17:06,730 --> 00:17:09,490 Frankly, I pay very little attention. 259 00:17:09,490 --> 00:17:16,370 But if you want to know about Jordan Peterson, I think the best thing I can refer you to 260 00:17:16,370 --> 00:17:24,110 is an article by Nathan Robinson, a very sharp, acute critic in his journal Current Affairs. 261 00:17:24,110 --> 00:17:29,930 It's called something like The Intellectual We Deserve or something like that. 262 00:17:29,930 --> 00:17:32,390 I think that's basically my answer. 263 00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:37,440 Other than that, I don't pay any attention. 264 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,200 I mean, there's some issues on which I probably agree with Hitler. 265 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,789 No, it doesn't mean much. 266 00:17:44,789 --> 00:17:51,070 On that subject, I think it's Aristotle, right, who says that people get the governments they 267 00:17:51,070 --> 00:17:52,890 deserve. 268 00:17:52,890 --> 00:17:54,700 Is this kind of the line? 269 00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:58,140 Aristotle said that people get the governments they deserve. 270 00:17:58,140 --> 00:18:02,020 Is this kind of what you're implying, but for intellectuals? 271 00:18:02,020 --> 00:18:05,950 No, I don't think people get the government they deserve. 272 00:18:05,950 --> 00:18:09,440 They get the government that power systems impose. 273 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,960 That's quite different. 274 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:17,840 On the systems of power, you had mentioned in Manufacturing Consent the idea of the principle 275 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:24,770 of bureaucratic affinity, the idea that large scale bureaucracies will ally with other large 276 00:18:24,770 --> 00:18:31,140 scale bureaucracies to sort of maintain a status quo and to aid each other. 277 00:18:31,140 --> 00:18:37,090 And that when a company like when a media company, for example, tries true journalism, 278 00:18:37,090 --> 00:18:42,559 these large bureaucracies be either the government or corporations will give the media company 279 00:18:42,559 --> 00:18:48,450 flack and sort of cease to work with them. 280 00:18:48,450 --> 00:18:56,070 My question for you is, does the principle of bureaucratic affinity apply to educational 281 00:18:56,070 --> 00:19:02,340 institutions like large universities? 282 00:19:02,340 --> 00:19:05,590 To a varying extent. 283 00:19:05,590 --> 00:19:09,190 Depends on the university, depends on the time and the era. 284 00:19:09,190 --> 00:19:18,950 You know, there's in our current situation, current circumstances with all their flaws, 285 00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:28,140 the universities are one of the last bastions of relative freedom of expression and research. 286 00:19:28,140 --> 00:19:32,530 Even of worker self-government to a certain extent. 287 00:19:32,530 --> 00:19:40,820 Faculty at a university has a degree of control over their working lives, which is very rare 288 00:19:40,820 --> 00:19:44,800 in the existing socio-political system. 289 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,230 So I don't think you can answer a simple yes or no. 290 00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:51,630 By comparative standards, they're relatively free. 291 00:19:51,630 --> 00:19:53,230 They have flaws. 292 00:19:53,230 --> 00:19:59,120 So, for example, if you take a look at the American university system, well, about just 293 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:06,460 a few years ago, you couldn't find a Marxist professor anywhere. 294 00:20:06,460 --> 00:20:11,750 Any other country in the world, they'd be all over the place. 295 00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:13,510 Not here. 296 00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:18,290 May I ask what do you attribute that to? 297 00:20:18,290 --> 00:20:24,930 In your in past comments, you had mentioned how academics maintain a sort of status quo 298 00:20:24,930 --> 00:20:30,740 as opposed to being the sort of radicals that they display themselves as. 299 00:20:30,740 --> 00:20:32,460 Do you find that still true? 300 00:20:32,460 --> 00:20:37,530 Or do you find that academics are changing? 301 00:20:37,530 --> 00:20:43,690 Well, and there's a kind of an ebb and flow. 302 00:20:43,690 --> 00:20:48,690 I think it's less true than it was 50 or 60 years ago. 303 00:20:48,690 --> 00:20:51,490 But it's more true than it ought to be. 304 00:20:51,490 --> 00:20:53,429 And it's not just academics. 305 00:20:53,429 --> 00:20:55,540 It's intellectuals generally. 306 00:20:55,540 --> 00:20:59,960 Look over the whole history of intellectuals for a couple of thousand years, in fact. 307 00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:00,960 And you find that overwhelmingly, they tend to stay in the middle. 308 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:02,230 A couple of thousand years, in fact. 309 00:21:02,230 --> 00:21:05,330 And you find that overwhelmingly, they tend to support power systems. 310 00:21:05,330 --> 00:21:08,929 There are a few who don't. 311 00:21:08,929 --> 00:21:11,000 They're usually treated pretty harshly. 312 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:18,419 In fact, just take the term intellectual in its modern sense, was first used at the time 313 00:21:18,419 --> 00:21:22,020 of the Dreyfus trial in France, late 19th century. 314 00:21:22,020 --> 00:21:29,419 Most of the intellectuals, the prestigious intellectuals, the ones of the French Academy 315 00:21:29,419 --> 00:21:32,930 and so on, bitterly condemned the Dreyfus arts. 316 00:21:32,930 --> 00:21:40,030 How dare these writers and artists question the majesty of our army, state and so on. 317 00:21:40,030 --> 00:21:46,039 And there were a few like Emil Zola, a couple of others who stood up against it. 318 00:21:46,039 --> 00:21:47,110 They were persecuted. 319 00:21:47,110 --> 00:21:49,850 And we may honor them today, but not at the time. 320 00:21:49,850 --> 00:21:53,600 And Emil Zola had to flee France. 321 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,150 That's the record in one form or another, all through history. 322 00:21:57,150 --> 00:22:02,650 So, in fact, shortly after this, the First World War came along. 323 00:22:02,650 --> 00:22:10,150 It was very dramatic to see what happened to the intellectual classes during this, including 324 00:22:10,150 --> 00:22:12,850 the left, during the First World War. 325 00:22:12,850 --> 00:22:20,100 In every single country, Germany, France, England, the United States, the intellectuals 326 00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:27,140 lined up almost 100 percent in passionate support of their own country. 327 00:22:27,140 --> 00:22:30,710 The ones who didn't, many of them ended up in jail. 328 00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:35,750 Bertrand Russell, Rosa Luxemburg, Gene Debs. 329 00:22:35,750 --> 00:22:36,900 That's the pattern. 330 00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:40,560 We're back, we're back. 331 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,630 Peter, do you want to repeat the question? 332 00:22:43,630 --> 00:22:44,760 Super quick. 333 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,720 This is my wife. 334 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,179 Hi, thank you. 335 00:22:49,179 --> 00:22:50,179 Thank you. 336 00:22:50,179 --> 00:22:51,870 Hello, Professor Noam Chomsky's wife. 337 00:22:51,870 --> 00:22:52,870 Okay. 338 00:22:52,870 --> 00:23:01,960 The question in summary was, in Manufacturing Consent, you teach us that big media is allied 339 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:03,809 with the government, corporate elites. 340 00:23:03,809 --> 00:23:10,700 As a result, the framework of big media's discussion fits comfortably in a propaganda 341 00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:16,340 model, an acceptable framework on how to analyze problems and talk about issues. 342 00:23:16,340 --> 00:23:24,919 Well, if academia itself is allied with government and corporate elites, then wouldn't they also 343 00:23:24,919 --> 00:23:26,929 fit a propaganda model? 344 00:23:26,929 --> 00:23:30,340 And if not, what makes them so unique? 345 00:23:30,340 --> 00:23:36,070 Well, for one thing, there's several things that are, to some extent, it's true. 346 00:23:36,070 --> 00:23:43,240 But notice that the relation of media to, say, corporate elites is very different from 347 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,340 the relation of universities to corporate elites. 348 00:23:46,340 --> 00:23:49,970 In the case of media, it's just, that's what they are. 349 00:23:49,970 --> 00:23:55,110 The media are major corporations, parts of bigger corporations. 350 00:23:55,110 --> 00:24:04,630 Flow in and out of government, you know, very heavily subject to government edicts and so 351 00:24:04,630 --> 00:24:05,630 on. 352 00:24:05,630 --> 00:24:08,220 Universities have the same influences, but much less so. 353 00:24:08,220 --> 00:24:13,680 The relation of a university to corporations is, can I get a grant? 354 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:19,220 You know, will I get a, will there be a donor who will be willing to build a building? 355 00:24:19,220 --> 00:24:25,280 That's very different from being part of the corporate system, which already allows a little 356 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:26,280 flexibility. 357 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:34,710 Also, there is, we should not underestimate the fact that there is a sense of professionalism 358 00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:39,120 and intellectual responsibility. 359 00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:41,340 That's true. 360 00:24:41,340 --> 00:24:46,700 There are serious journalists, many of them who understand the system very well. 361 00:24:46,700 --> 00:24:51,270 They didn't have to hear it from us and who try to find ways to combat it. 362 00:24:51,270 --> 00:24:57,960 And it happens now in the media, they tend to be marginalized and eliminated. 363 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,160 You know, they don't have to be, you know, they don't have to be in the media. 364 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:05,399 You know, sent to the police desk, you're not really ready for big time work, you know, 365 00:25:05,399 --> 00:25:06,399 that sort of thing. 366 00:25:06,399 --> 00:25:12,309 And that kind of thing happens in the universities too, but probably to a slightly lesser extent. 367 00:25:12,309 --> 00:25:14,970 And it depends also on the field. 368 00:25:14,970 --> 00:25:20,960 So many fields in the university are almost totally free from outside pressures. 369 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,210 The physics department, for instance. 370 00:25:24,210 --> 00:25:29,740 Some people have suggested that they should, that we should remove universities. 371 00:25:29,740 --> 00:25:33,330 And this is reminiscent, Jordan Peterson, for example, said, suggests to students, don't 372 00:25:33,330 --> 00:25:38,230 go to universities anymore because of the bias, because of the unitary point of views. 373 00:25:38,230 --> 00:25:42,490 And this is reminiscent of anarchist Yvonne Illman, who said, you know, we should not 374 00:25:42,490 --> 00:25:43,490 go to universities. 375 00:25:43,490 --> 00:25:46,169 Listen to what Jordan Peterson is saying. 376 00:25:46,169 --> 00:25:49,030 He's saying universities are dominated by the left. 377 00:25:49,030 --> 00:25:53,850 Now for him, the left, is anybody to the left of Attila the Hun. 378 00:25:53,850 --> 00:25:57,250 In fact, universities are dominated by the right. 379 00:25:57,250 --> 00:26:00,912 He's so far on the right that that looks like the left to him. 380 00:26:00,912 --> 00:26:02,039 And so he's saying, you know, we should eliminate universities. 381 00:26:02,039 --> 00:26:03,039 But the right is people who will say that university is dominated by the left. 382 00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:04,980 But does it make sense to tell students not to go to universities? 383 00:26:04,980 --> 00:26:05,980 It's crazy. 384 00:26:05,980 --> 00:26:10,760 It's one of the places where you can, there's lots of things wrong, 385 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:16,750 but there are resources and opportunities that simply don't exist anywhere else. 386 00:26:16,750 --> 00:26:24,060 You can't, there are opportunities to become a free, independent, creative individual, 387 00:26:24,060 --> 00:26:26,960 working with others that you just don't have elsewhere. 388 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:28,860 Sorry, I misspoke. 389 00:26:28,860 --> 00:26:33,640 I didn't mean that to suggest that he suggested to eliminate the universities. 390 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,240 I'm more trying to convey the decentralizing of universities. 391 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:38,990 So for example, an online school. 392 00:26:38,990 --> 00:26:44,200 There's a lot you miss in an online school. 393 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,039 Your peers. 394 00:26:46,039 --> 00:26:51,220 One of the big parts of education is the students you're with. 395 00:26:51,220 --> 00:26:55,100 That those kinds of interactions are gone online. 396 00:26:55,100 --> 00:27:00,250 And they're very important for educating oneself. 397 00:27:00,250 --> 00:27:05,720 Anybody who's been in a, through a school or university situation knows how you can 398 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:11,059 learn more from interaction with your peers than from sitting in on a lecture. 399 00:27:11,059 --> 00:27:13,210 Even interaction with the faculty. 400 00:27:13,210 --> 00:27:18,000 So it's one thing to sit in a lecture class or watch a television screen. 401 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:23,630 And it's another thing to be in an actual class where you're interacting with other 402 00:27:23,630 --> 00:27:25,429 students and with the faculty. 403 00:27:25,429 --> 00:27:27,330 So yes, there are good things. 404 00:27:27,330 --> 00:27:33,580 I mean, I think it's good to try to extend the resources of the university elsewhere. 405 00:27:33,580 --> 00:27:39,750 But there's nothing to replace the direct face to face interaction. 406 00:27:39,750 --> 00:27:43,470 Not just when you're in class, but when you're doing something else. 407 00:27:43,470 --> 00:27:49,720 When you're sitting in a McDonald's and having a hamburger with your friends and talking. 408 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:55,440 What are your thoughts on the Christian anarchist, Ivan Illich, and his rise in popularity amongst 409 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,320 social activists? 410 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,909 An anarchist who believed in de-schooling society. 411 00:28:00,909 --> 00:28:03,559 His popular work. 412 00:28:03,559 --> 00:28:07,920 I sort of understand some of the motivation for it. 413 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:16,380 But de-schooling society is taking away from people some of their major opportunities for 414 00:28:16,380 --> 00:28:19,640 individual growth and social interaction. 415 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,419 And even general activism. 416 00:28:22,419 --> 00:28:31,649 I mean, it's not just pure accident that over the years, student activism has been typically 417 00:28:31,649 --> 00:28:37,830 at the forefront of many of the most important social movements. 418 00:28:37,830 --> 00:28:42,649 Partly it's just because young people are a period of their life when they're relatively 419 00:28:42,649 --> 00:28:43,649 free. 420 00:28:43,649 --> 00:28:46,420 But it's also the fact that they're together. 421 00:28:46,420 --> 00:28:48,280 They can talk with one another. 422 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,120 They can interact. 423 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:56,720 Something that's pretty much missing and atomized in capitalist society. 424 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,190 Then I'm running into a little bit of a confusion here. 425 00:29:00,190 --> 00:29:06,769 On the one hand, the history of intellectuals and academia sort of lines up with the status 426 00:29:06,769 --> 00:29:07,769 quo. 427 00:29:07,769 --> 00:29:12,320 In the sense that we were talking about Nazism and things before. 428 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,720 But on the other hand, they're on the forefront of social change. 429 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:21,049 How are these views compatible? 430 00:29:21,049 --> 00:29:25,870 Their participants are in the forefront of social change. 431 00:29:25,870 --> 00:29:31,320 The mainstream may be status quo and conservative, which it is. 432 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:32,650 Take a look at student activism. 433 00:29:32,650 --> 00:29:37,120 It's usually opposed by the administration and most of the faculty. 434 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,620 But nevertheless, it takes place. 435 00:29:39,620 --> 00:29:43,169 Because this is a relatively free institution. 436 00:29:43,169 --> 00:29:52,799 Which means that there are opportunities to break out of the doctrinaire system of attempted 437 00:29:52,799 --> 00:29:54,720 regimentation. 438 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,910 We're not living in totalitarian dictatorships where if you say the wrong thing, you get 439 00:29:59,910 --> 00:30:02,740 sent to the concentration camp. 440 00:30:02,740 --> 00:30:08,320 We're living in societies with a relative degree of freedom. 441 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,370 Often infringed by authoritarian structures. 442 00:30:12,370 --> 00:30:18,529 But they don't have the kind of force they do if the SS troops are standing behind you. 443 00:30:18,529 --> 00:30:21,130 We shouldn't compare ourselves with that. 444 00:30:21,130 --> 00:30:27,289 In that case, what is an anarcho-syndicalist take on education? 445 00:30:27,289 --> 00:30:30,590 On what it should look like and what needs to change? 446 00:30:30,590 --> 00:30:34,450 From how it is now to how it should be. 447 00:30:34,450 --> 00:30:40,480 Actually, the anarchist movement, not just the anarcho-syndicalists, were in the forefront 448 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:41,919 of developing. 449 00:30:41,919 --> 00:30:43,240 Progressive education systems. 450 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:51,779 So for example, in Spain, where the 1936 revolution was the most successful. 451 00:30:51,779 --> 00:30:54,560 So for example, of the anarchist revolution. 452 00:30:54,560 --> 00:31:02,480 That was preceded by decades of educational efforts in villages and towns everywhere. 453 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,920 Trying to create a free, liberatory environment. 454 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,510 In which students could find their own ways. 455 00:31:10,510 --> 00:31:12,309 Their creativity would be sponsored. 456 00:31:12,309 --> 00:31:14,490 They would work jointly with one another. 457 00:31:14,490 --> 00:31:19,640 Very similar to progressive education tendencies of John Dewey and others. 458 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,019 Which I happened to benefit from as a child. 459 00:31:23,019 --> 00:31:26,610 In fact, I'm familiar with and taught that way as well. 460 00:31:26,610 --> 00:31:29,529 So yes, anarchist education has been very progressive. 461 00:31:29,529 --> 00:31:35,850 There's also people like Paulo Freire who argued that it should be an interactive process. 462 00:31:35,850 --> 00:31:38,600 Where the teacher is learning from the students. 463 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,169 Not just students. 464 00:31:40,169 --> 00:31:42,980 Having an opportunity for freedom. 465 00:31:42,980 --> 00:31:49,179 That's what I think is the kind of direction that education should take. 466 00:31:49,179 --> 00:31:55,130 The course that it should follow and does in the better places. 467 00:31:55,130 --> 00:32:04,470 Do you feel that if education is too centralized, these alternative platforms will be sidelined? 468 00:32:04,470 --> 00:32:07,620 Neglected in the public sphere? 469 00:32:07,620 --> 00:32:16,460 Or for example, in universities that student participation would get minimized? 470 00:32:16,460 --> 00:32:18,899 I don't think there's a simple answer. 471 00:32:18,899 --> 00:32:21,720 You could have a public education system. 472 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:29,789 Which fosters individual creativity, freedom, student initiative and so on. 473 00:32:29,789 --> 00:32:33,419 You could have a scattered system of charter schools. 474 00:32:33,419 --> 00:32:38,769 Which are business run and which impose discipline. 475 00:32:38,769 --> 00:32:40,530 It depends on the educational program. 476 00:32:40,530 --> 00:32:42,480 Not whether it's central or not. 477 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:43,480 It depends. 478 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:50,320 I have a question that either you would think is completely polar opposite or that they 479 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:51,580 completely overlap. 480 00:32:51,580 --> 00:32:55,419 What were you thinking during your interview, your conversation with Foucault? 481 00:32:55,419 --> 00:33:00,059 And what were you thinking during your conversation with Ali G? 482 00:33:00,059 --> 00:33:01,059 With Ali G? 483 00:33:01,059 --> 00:33:02,059 I didn't hear the first one. 484 00:33:02,059 --> 00:33:03,970 With Foucault and with Ali G. 485 00:33:03,970 --> 00:33:06,630 Well, it's quite different. 486 00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:12,260 In the case of Ali G, I was not particularly interested in the interview. 487 00:33:12,260 --> 00:33:15,370 But I think it was the BBC or whoever was behind it. 488 00:33:15,370 --> 00:33:18,809 They gave me a big song and dance about it. 489 00:33:18,809 --> 00:33:21,840 It was going to be a very serious interview. 490 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:22,840 So I finally agreed. 491 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,340 As soon as he walked in, I realized this is a joke. 492 00:33:26,340 --> 00:33:28,470 I tried to be polite. 493 00:33:28,470 --> 00:33:29,919 I had a hard time with it. 494 00:33:29,919 --> 00:33:31,269 I didn't take it seriously enough. 495 00:33:31,269 --> 00:33:34,710 You mean to say you realized that it was a joke? 496 00:33:34,710 --> 00:33:39,210 Or you felt like the whole interview was a joke and you thought he was for real? 497 00:33:39,210 --> 00:33:45,139 The whole thing was obviously some kind of an efforted comedy, which I didn't want to 498 00:33:45,139 --> 00:33:46,139 be part of. 499 00:33:46,139 --> 00:33:50,980 And I was perfectly, I mean, I was on the tip of my tongue saying, look, this is enough. 500 00:33:50,980 --> 00:33:51,980 Let's terminate it. 501 00:33:51,980 --> 00:33:54,889 But being polite, I went along with it for a while. 502 00:33:54,889 --> 00:33:56,330 Foucault is quite different. 503 00:33:56,330 --> 00:34:01,309 Actually, we had spent, Foucault and I had spent a large part of the day together. 504 00:34:01,309 --> 00:34:03,500 The interview was in the evening. 505 00:34:03,500 --> 00:34:07,260 I was just walking around the Dutch countryside. 506 00:34:07,260 --> 00:34:12,899 Partly because we wanted to have a chance to talk, but partly to see if we could get 507 00:34:12,899 --> 00:34:16,929 by with him talking French and me talking English. 508 00:34:16,929 --> 00:34:19,889 Would we be able to understand each other? 509 00:34:19,889 --> 00:34:20,889 Or should we have a translator? 510 00:34:20,889 --> 00:34:23,750 We finally figured we could carry it off. 511 00:34:23,750 --> 00:34:25,609 I don't know much French. 512 00:34:25,609 --> 00:34:27,530 He doesn't know much English, but it worked. 513 00:34:27,530 --> 00:34:34,440 And the debate was about issues that are fairly serious issues. 514 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:35,890 So nothing before archaeology. 515 00:34:35,890 --> 00:34:37,340 We disagreed about a lot of things. 516 00:34:37,340 --> 00:34:40,950 I was kind of appalled by some of his views. 517 00:34:40,950 --> 00:34:44,990 But it was within the domain of rational discourse. 518 00:34:44,990 --> 00:34:45,990 Okay. 519 00:34:45,990 --> 00:34:48,090 I know you're a busy person. 520 00:34:48,090 --> 00:34:52,079 I only have two more questions, and they're super quick. 521 00:34:52,079 --> 00:34:54,790 One is, what are your thoughts on postmodernism? 522 00:34:54,790 --> 00:34:57,260 What do you agree with and what do you disagree with? 523 00:34:57,260 --> 00:35:04,320 Well, for about a couple of decades, I've had a very simple question that I've been 524 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,560 posing to my postmodern friends. 525 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:17,970 Can you find something in postmodernism which is not either a triviality cloaked in polysyllables 526 00:35:17,970 --> 00:35:20,170 or is false? 527 00:35:20,170 --> 00:35:23,530 And nobody's answered it yet. 528 00:35:23,530 --> 00:35:26,280 So that's about all I can say. 529 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:27,280 Okay. 530 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,360 And then my last question was, you're extremely prolific. 531 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,710 You've written, I think, over 100 books, at least on politics, and then many more on other 532 00:35:33,710 --> 00:35:34,710 subjects. 533 00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:36,230 How do you structure your day? 534 00:35:36,230 --> 00:35:38,670 What's your productivity look like? 535 00:35:38,670 --> 00:35:40,320 Your routine? 536 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:47,650 Well, right now, since my wife Valeria and I moved to Arizona, not living in Cambridge 537 00:35:47,650 --> 00:35:53,790 anymore, my routine is to get up early in the morning, take our dogs out, play with 538 00:35:53,790 --> 00:35:55,470 them for a while. 539 00:35:55,470 --> 00:36:00,530 Then read the newspaper and start looking at the huge quantity of email that piled up. 540 00:36:00,530 --> 00:36:04,760 If I can get rid of that, get to work on serious things. 541 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,369 Ah, but did you clean your room? 542 00:36:07,369 --> 00:36:08,650 I'm just kidding. 543 00:36:08,650 --> 00:36:12,710 I said, ah, but did you clean your room? 544 00:36:12,710 --> 00:36:14,240 Clean my room? 545 00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:16,470 Jordan Peterson reference. 546 00:36:16,470 --> 00:36:19,650 There's very little oxygen in the room. 547 00:36:19,650 --> 00:36:21,330 It's mostly books and papers. 548 00:36:21,330 --> 00:36:24,470 It's not much clean. 549 00:36:24,470 --> 00:36:26,890 Thank you so much, Professor, and thank you. 550 00:36:26,890 --> 00:36:28,270 What's your wife's name? 551 00:36:28,270 --> 00:36:29,270 Valeria? 552 00:36:32,270 --> 00:36:30,270 Valeria. 553 00:36:34,270 --> 00:36:33,270 Hi. 554 00:36:34,270 --> 00:36:36,280 Thank you so much. 555 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,130 Thank you. 556 00:36:38,130 --> 00:36:41,599 I'll send you a link to this interview as well. 557 00:36:41,599 --> 00:36:43,319 I'll give you a copy of the interview. 558 00:36:43,319 --> 00:36:44,319 Sure.